1 Topic by ctclark1

  • ctclark1
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-03-31
  • Posts: 7

Topic: X-Frame assistance

I know most of the discussion here focuses on the NION, but after I posted some questions in the regular Peavey forum, JoshM invited me over here to join in.

I'll start out with a little background - I've been working for a local theme park each summer since 2004 as their sound designer for the in park shows. Anyway, we're no longer using one of the venues there and are reallocating the equipment around the park. I've had a little experience working with the X Frame 1.3d software, and am slowly getting better (After playing with it a little bit about 2 years ago), I just recently figured out how to create a system with meters and level controls and a schematic in a separate window.

My biggest question is - does anyone have a true manual they could send me? The only thing I've been able to get after asking a couple different places, including emailing mmsupport, is the brochure style paper at http://mm.peavey.com/assets/tech_notes/ … me_415.pdf

I know this is a super old product and an upgrade to the 88 or even a digitool would probably be beneficial, but our budget doesn't support that at this time, so I'm trying to make the most of our existing equipment, at this time that means putting the xframe and its BOB into a different venue to provide processing where we've been hodgepodging things together for years. As I said I've figured out quite a bit with the X-Frame software, but had hit a roadbump where I ran out of DSP cycles when compiling a preliminary runthrough of the system. JoshM did help me a bit in that the GEQ's are essentially resource hogs and I've gotten that worked around, but I feel like having a manual in front of me could help me immensely with being able to optimize some of the other processing and control I'm trying to do here.

2 Reply by phils

  • phils
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • Registered: 2007-08-15
  • Posts: 322

Re: X-Frame assistance

I don't have a manual to offer you, but I'd go to the Help file first. If that's not comprehensive enough, I'd download MWare 3.3.5, as it has copious Help (most, but not all, is relevant to XFrame).

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
                                                                                        - George Bernard Shaw

3 Reply by JoshM

  • JoshM
  • JoshM
  • Recording Engineer at Burnt Orange Studio
  • Offline
  • From: Meridian, MS
  • Registered: 2007-08-13
  • Posts: 1,498

Re: X-Frame assistance

For anyone who is interested in learning as much as they can about the old MediaMatrix Frame systems, Ray Rayburn has compiled an impressive list of advanced topics with content. You can find that information here:
http://soundfirst.net/Advanced_Class/

For anyone who doesn't know, Ray was very involved in the development of the original MediaMatrix Frame system's software, MWare, and was involved again when the NION's software, NWare, was developed. If there is anyone who is most familiar with all the in's and out's of the MWare and NWare software, it would be Ray. The neat thing is that several of the MWare topics can be translated directly to XWare.

Josh Millward
Burnt Orange Studios

JoshM's Website

4 Reply by ctclark1

  • ctclark1
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-03-31
  • Posts: 7

Re: X-Frame assistance

Believe me once I discovered how much info for each device was in the help file it did help immensely, but I can't help but think I'm missing out on a bunch of information still.

At one time years ago, I ran across a binder at the park (from the original installation company) that had a photocopied document in it which I'm pretty sure was a manual for the x-frame with a big stamp on the front saying it was a "pre release" manual. That binder has since long been missing so I don't even have a badly copied "beta" manual, and the company who originally setup and provided the system is no longer in existance (hasn't been in a while)...

I'll look over that info Josh, in the meantime if anyone happens across a manual from older days I'd still really appreciate it! (Maybe next year I'll finally convince them to get a newer processor, but until then the X-frame is all I have)

5 Reply by ctclark1

  • ctclark1
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-03-31
  • Posts: 7

Re: X-Frame assistance

I'll just continue this thread because I don't feel like spamming you guys with new threads about an ancient system... But I spent almost 8 hours yesterday getting all the necessary wired made to go between my other equipment and the phoenix blocks, and wiring everything up (out to 7 amps, plus in from all the main/sub group/aux outputs on the mixer), and then set a temporary config on the Xframe to run a 1K sine wave at 0db to calibrate all the amps to the same voltage gain (didn't have the speakers hooked up at this point yet), and discover on the outputs of the xframe that as I'm trying to set the sine wave to 1V, that the output levels of the x-frame vs. the Bob 8800 are not the same... I don't know exactly what the difference in level is, but when I was getting 1.5V from the main frame, the bob was giving me .5V, and when I got the frame down to .9V there was no reading on my multimeter at all from the bob...

I remember reading somewhere about a dip switch or jumper in the bob, but don't remember where that is anymore. Additionally, even with that jumper, what settings would I need to put where to get the same level from the Xframe's 4 outputs as the Bob's 8 outputs? Even in rushed testing as I was already running extremely late, I managed to drop the 4 outputs on the Xframe by about 10 db or so and come somewhere near matching the outputs, sound wise (my main left and right speakers are biamped on the main frame, my subwoofer output comes out of the Bob, and was severely quieter than the seemingly insanely hot main outputs until I dropped the main outputs a lot!)

Please help! This puts a major hitch in my system and if I can't get these leveled out it completely destroys the entire system design and I need to start from scratch again. There's not enough time for that, nor do we have the budget to, say, replace the processor.

Last edited by ctclark1 (2012-05-04 01:07:45)

6 Reply by JoshM

  • JoshM
  • JoshM
  • Recording Engineer at Burnt Orange Studio
  • Offline
  • From: Meridian, MS
  • Registered: 2007-08-13
  • Posts: 1,498

Re: X-Frame assistance

With all the MediaMatrix DSP platforms (Mainframe/Miniframe, XFrame, and NION) it is possible to scale the output levels to suit whatever your next stage in your signal path is going to be. It sounds like this could be an issue that you are experiencing in this system. The available settings are +6dBu, +12dBu, +18dBu, and +24dBu. So, certainly if one device is set to +6 while another device is set to +24, you are going to experience significant differences in output level.

In the XWare software, you should have a block that said, by default, "Local Control Block" for the local I/O on the XFrame, and another block that says "BoB A Control Block". Inside these blocks there is another block across the bottom that says, "Full-Scale Output". If you open this block, there are a set of four radio buttons for each output channel that will allow you to choose which maximum output level you would prefer to use. There are also digital gains in these control blocks and the output blocks that could also be contributing to your gain structure issues, so I'd be sure to check them all.

If you would like, I can take a look at your configuration file and see if I can reproduce the issues that you are experiencing.

Josh Millward
Burnt Orange Studios

JoshM's Website

7 Reply by phils

  • phils
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • Registered: 2007-08-15
  • Posts: 322

Re: X-Frame assistance

Just a slight variation: if this is XFrame 1.3d, we're talking 2RU XFrame and 2RU Bobs, right?
Therefore output scaling is on jumpers, isn't it?

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
                                                                                        - George Bernard Shaw

8 Reply by JoshM

  • JoshM
  • JoshM
  • Recording Engineer at Burnt Orange Studio
  • Offline
  • From: Meridian, MS
  • Registered: 2007-08-13
  • Posts: 1,498

Re: X-Frame assistance

phils wrote:

Just a slight variation: if this is XFrame 1.3d, we're talking 2RU XFrame and 2RU Bobs, right?
Therefore output scaling is on jumpers, isn't it?

Yes, you are correct, Phil. If you are using the BoB's with the original XFrame (NOT the XFrame-88) or old style (16-bit) Miniframe, then the output scaling is handled by jumpers that are on the mainboard, underneath the input cards.

Good catch, Phil... I thought ctclark1 was using the XFrame-88, but reading back through the posts I see it is actually the original XFrame. So yes, ctclark1, you will need to open the BoB, pull out the Input cards, and have a look at the jumpers on the main board. I expect that they are set to +6dBu output by default. You can turn them up to +24dBu by moving them around a bit. I think there is a legend screened on the board to tell you where to put the jumpers, but if you need help, let us know and we can probably tell you what you need to know. (I'll have to open one up to have a look at it to refresh my memory.)

Josh Millward
Burnt Orange Studios

JoshM's Website

9 Reply by ctclark1

  • ctclark1
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-03-31
  • Posts: 7

Re: X-Frame assistance

After days and days and days of digging, I finally managed to pull up a pdf that showed the jumper settings (I knew I had heard about it before, but just mentioned, not actually showing what goes where)... This morning I pulled the BoB out and moved all the output jumpers to +12 (they were on +6), but I was still just a tad lower than the actual Xframe outputs when running the sine generator at 1kHz - When I had the BoB outputs measuring 1V the Xframe was measuring 1.2-1.3V... Much better than the 1V difference I was seeing before. I managed to trim this out for my test voltage of 1V (I was trying to calibrate my non-peavey amps to 40X voltage gain to match everything) by applying a -2db trim to the four Xframe outputs and they all hummed (or would that be whined, being a sine wave?) along at 1V output so that with no speakers hooked up I could get all my amps outputting 40V (or as close as possible, some of them had the stupid detented knobs, yuck!)

Still not having a manual for the actual xframe, I'm still only finding manuals and data regarding the BoB 88xx series, is there a better way I should trim this out? I'm not certain based on some earlier measurements I had made last week, that trimming the output by -2 actually scales correctly at different voltages or if it only matches for the voltage I was aligning them to? Is the .2V difference I was seeing at the outputs not enough to even worry about?


And again, Thank you guys for all your help! I wish we could upgrade the controllers, maybe next year, but for now I'm working with what I've got and it is tricky not having the original manuals!